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Monday, August 29, 2011

Knowledge to support thoughts in order to ease minds



So I posted this as a facebook status: “It's pretty clear that Ephesians 5:21-33 is Paul showing that the original state of marriage (Genesis 1-2), one of absolute equality with no 'buts', with no 'head' being a symbol of authority, is now possible in a post Genesis 3 world. I find it difficult for anyone to every argue that man is the authority of the relationship/marriage from a Biblical standpoint.” I was then told this was irresponsible because it’s a thought stated without knowledge. So I guess here’s the responsible thing to do.

From my experience the traditional understanding of this text is ultimately man is the head of the woman, thus meaning the man has authority over the woman. Some might say this authority is physical, emotional, or spiritual but this is a gross misunderstanding of Paul’s intent and the overall Gospel narrative.

The section starts with, “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Eph 5:21 KJV). This is the foundational thought and truth of the upcoming verses in which Paul is going to show that marriage, family, and society is being radically redefined by a resurrected people. There is nothing wrong with this verse. To me it is pretty simple in saying everyone, male and female, submit to one another in the fear of Christ.

The following verse is where the confrontation begins. “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord” (Eph 5:22 KJV). The problem with this verse in the original Greek manuscript is that the word “submit” does not exist. So it would read, “wives, yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.” English needed a verb so it was taken from v.21 “submit.” Women are not told to submit here to their husbands, but to submit to them as they are submitted to Christ and equally men are submitted to their wives as they are to Christ.

The thought is because when women are “to be subject” and the man is to be “the head” that women are therefore inferior. This would make a little sense based off an English translation, but when we are originally written it is difficult to fit that logic into Paul’s argument. Given the mutual submission Gorman comments, “Subjection to one’s husband is a subset of the general community practice of subjection. The woman’s husband therefore has the same obligation (subjection) to her, inasmuch as they are members of the believing community.” It might be bad but I’d cross out “subject” or “submit” from verse 22.

What Paul has in view is marriage of the original intent, Genesis 2:24, “one flesh” is now possible in a post Genesis 3:16-17 world. The curse involved both male and female desire to rule over another, but the resurrection, a new creation, has restored the state of marriage, the state of one flesh, the intimate nature between “head” and “body”. “In Paul’s view this image primarily conveys, not the husband’s authority and the wife’s submission, but the intimate unity between the head and the body that makes them one flesh. Thus the head’s duty is not to govern but to nourish, and to do so sacrificially. The radical image of headship here is of a crucified Lord-power in weakness and self-giving love, which can be reciprocated”(Gorman).

When the text is view as much it is more inline with the life of Christ. Sometimes I take Philippians 2:6-11 as the benchmark for the ethic of the believing community, the rod by which we should measure our actions, our sense of power or authority. Man has no authority over a woman because “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28 NAS).

I find this incredibly important because the state of marriage amongst believers is one that does not point to a restored and renewed people. I believe the presuppositions we have on marriage, i.e. who's in authority, have greatly damaged our cause. Our example is Christ and we as male and female need to act as Christ who “although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” (Phi 2:6 NAS).

13 comments:

  1. I didn't mean it as harshly as perhaps it sounded... I am just incredibly careful whenever I see the words "I find it difficult for anyone to ever argue..."... you're almost discounting an argument before it's heard - and it can certainly be taken to mean that someone of equal intelligence as yourself couldn't rationally have a different view...


    As far as the topic goes, a couple of things...

    Where do you see that the original manuscript doesn't have the word submit?

    My sources say the word there is "ὑποτάσσω" - hyoptasso - which was a military term meaning to subordinate to or arrange under...

    Now, I think it's grossly misstating the idea of subordination and authority to just say that a man cannot be the 'head' of his household without dominating or ruling over his wife in an un-Christlike fashion.

    Husbands are called to love their wives - as Christ loves the church, His bride.

    It's clearly not possible to demonstrate such love while domineering/lording over one's wife.

    It still remains possible - and likely given the sheer number of examples of marriage relationships in Scripture - that men and women have different abilities and are called to different roles.

    It's logically possible to love your wife as Christ loves her and still be the head of the household in the sense that he is the ultimate decision maker, spiritual leader, etc.

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  2. "It's logically possible to love your wife as Christ loves her and still be the head of the household in the sense that he is the ultimate decision maker, spiritual leader, etc."
    I cannot agree with this. It does not work, but you're welcome to try it out on your wife. I used to have your view but life experience has taught me a completely different reality when I started working in ministry with predominately women. My hope is that I will not be the head but submitted to my wife and to her dreams. I will forgo my own dreams.

    Submit doesn't occur in v22, it is v21. The greek has no verb.

    "It still remains possible - and likely given the sheer number of examples of marriage relationships in Scripture - that men and women have different abilities and are called to different roles." I don't know of too many examples in the NT on marriage but when there is it is both husband and wife leading a house church. I don't believe you can use OT example because the Christ event inaugurated a new age in which the OT only hoped for.

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  3. The fundamental difference between us is that I cannot say that as the head I can have any ultimate role in any sense. I have removed that from my thoughts.

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  4. I believe the purpose of marriage is to make us holy. Saying we can't follow OT examples of marriage is a pretty unbelievable statement.

    Marriage was instituted with Adam and Eve - Christ upheld the institution - he didn't reinvent it.

    It's entirely possible to maintain a different interpretation of Scripture - that is, you have clearly not presented a logically sound and valid argument, exegetically speaking, - and still be in line with Christ's model of love for us - in and through marriage.

    Your lack of understanding of my position, and your personal revelations to the contrary, do not make your position Biblical knowledge... that's what I really meant by my post on your status about responsibility.

    And one last point - submitting to your wife's dreams does not preclude one from leading her as I believe Scripture calls her husband to. In fact, I would argue that part of the leadership that men must exhibit is sensitivity to the spiritual (and Spirit given) desires of his wife... just a thought

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  5. Wow... quite the controversy. Sometimes these kinds of discussions can unfortunately get exacerbated online when words can be written/read outside of the human to human context.

    Anywho, while I do grant the above said concerns and agree that personal revelation is not adequate to overthrow biblical exegesis, I have not seen anything presented that would contradict Brian's post.

    Like all issues, we've got to be careful (even in our exegesis) to not read into the text what we want to be read. Knowing the background of Ephesus, Paul's context, and the biblical narratives take as a whole on the issue of humanity I can wholeheartedly agree with Brian's post.

    The issue really comes down to submission, what it means, what it looks like, and to whom you do it.

    As a wise biblical scholar once told me: It's alway easy to know who is supposed to submit to whom... whoever has the power at that moment.

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  6. taylor yes marriage was instituted with adam and eve, then ruined by them, then christ restored, not reinvented. i have no clue where you got the though that its been reinvented. I thought i made it clear that Paul was arguing for a restoration of marriage.
    I believe i understand your position as i held the same view my entire life but like chad said an understanding of Ephesus and that culture the scripture came to life.
    submission is a christian value as perfectly exampled by christ. so you could say if man has authority should she exercise it or as Philippians 2:6-11 would make yourself a servant? i hope i choose servant that's all.
    I didn't read into the text because i was searching for this, it was more a revealing through study and research and teaching and I love it.
    you cannot dismiss experience. when you say something like "Your lack of understanding of my position, and your personal revelations to the contrary, do not make your position Biblical knowledge.." it is hurtful and arrogant sounding. i cannot read the bible in a vacuum. i simply expressed views that i believe paul is stating about the state of marriage within a faith community.
    if you feel i misunderstand you please explain your position.

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  7. I agree with Chad that these discussions online can often be blown way out of proportion because it is easy to read into something that is not there.
    With that said, I just wanted to put a link up of a sermon that I believe does a fair job of representing a complimentary view of men/women, headship, etc. I feel it might help us to at least be on the same page when discussing this serious topic.

    http://www.folfcrc.com/2009/07/12/built-with-roles/

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  8. I didn't mean it to get to this point - in fact, I really didn't want to get into this discussion.

    My main 'beef' was your statement to start "I find it difficult for anyone to ever argue.."

    And I apologize if my statement was hurtful - it was not an attack. The same statement goes for my own beliefs.

    You were stating your beliefs as "clear" knowledge, and I took issue with it because I disagree with your stance and found it equally arrogant for you to claim that you don't see how anyone could argue with you.

    I'll stop butchering what I believe, and let Piper say what I agree with...

    "One of the things to learn from this mystery is that the roles of husband and wife in marriage are distinct. Consider the way Ephesians 5:22–25 unpacks the role of husband and the role of wife in the mystery of marriage as a copy of Christ and the church: “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” Husbands are compared to Christ; wives are compared to the church. Husbands are compared to the head; wives are compared to the body. Husbands are commanded to love as Christ loved; wives are commanded to submit as the church is to submit to Christ.

    It is astonishing how many people do not see this when they deal with this passage. Or, seeing it, neglect it. I have in mind those who would be called egalitarians—the ones who reject the idea that men are called to be leaders in the home. They put all the emphasis on verse 21 and the teaching of mutual submission. All agree that verse 21 is overflow from verse 18 where Paul commands us to be filled with the Spirit. Verses 18b-21: “Be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

    So submitting to one another is seen as an expression of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Husbands and wives who are filled with the Holy Spirit serve one another. They humble themselves and get down low to lift the other up. They find ways to submit their immediate preferences for comfort to the need of the other. Amen to that! May it happen more and more. I have no desire to minimize the mutuality of submission and servanthood."

    http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/lionhearted-and-lamblike-the-christian-husband-as-head-part-1

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  9. "In other words, mutuality of submission and servanthood do not cancel out the reality of leadership or headship. Servanthood does not nullify leadership; it defines it. Jesus does not cease to be the Lion of Judah when he becomes the lamb-like servant of the church."

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  11. Like I said I was brought up with Piper's view or the complimentarian view. Quite literally was taught by my dad taught. I understand the view as well as anyone, but, as Piper said, I am one of the "the ones who reject the idea that men are called to be leaders in the home." :)

    The bodily analogy Paul uses is to drive home the Genesis 2:24 quote on being "one flesh." The head and the body are one flesh working in perfect unity. The head is this case is not as symbol of authority, nor the body as one of submission. Plus this chapter has more to do about the Church than marriage as Paul states. I think we read into it our presupposed thoughts on head implying authority.

    When I say men and women are equal, I stop there. I used to add "but men are the head." I don't anymore because of Paul and Ephesians.

    If both parties are in submission to one another as they are to Christ, then neither party has any claim to authority over another.

    I disagree with Piper.

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